Despite her 'controversial' image, Dr. Margie Holmes puts family – daughter Alex and husband Jeremy – first.

Her detractors may want you to think that she’s nothing more than a promiscuous harpy bent on destroying the very fabric of Filipino family values. But any amount of time spent in the presence of Dr. Margarita Go-Singco Holmes will quickly prove that nothing could be farther from the truth. Why, Dr. Holmes even brought her family along for this interview!

That and so many other preconceived notions are quickly dispelled once somebody comes face-to-face with arguably the country’s most well-known sex therapist. One can even make a list:

1.) No, she did not come from a sexually- liberated family. In fact, it was quite the opposite, with her father firmly opposing her transferring from Maryknoll, to the more liberal environs of UP-Diliman.

2.) No, while she certainly exudes confidence now, it didn’t start out that way. Just like any growing adolescent, she had her bouts of insecurity, with books and literature becoming her saviors.

3.) And yes, she’s not all about sex. Human sexuality may be the topic that got her name out into the public’s consciousness but Dr. Holmes is equally as enthusiastic about discussing the importance of therapy and the need for more discussion on the subject of mental
disorder and clinical depression.

It’s easy to see why so many “myths” have sprung around Margie Holmes. Her column “BodyMind” became a sensation not just here in the country but in other territories as well, with reviews coming in from such respected publications such as Newsweek, Time, The Far Eastern Economic Review, Associated Press, Agence France Press, etc. Her quick wit, humor, and her insistence on backing up her answers with research quickly endeared her to readers.

“I think one of the reasons why the column was so good and that people liked it was because I made a clear distinction between research and opinion. I quoted a lot of research. I think a lot of advice columns then didn’t do that. It was based on years of training,” she explains.

Her years of training certainly isn’t anything to scoff at. She received her A.B. in Psychology from the University of the Philippines, where she was one of the seven magna cum laude among the more than 2,500 students to graduate during her year. She got her Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from the Ateneo de Manila University, and got her masters in Public Health from the University of Hawaii in Manoa.

She also created the first-ever Phillippine- based show to deal with psychological issues entitled “No Nonsense with Dr. Holmes” and has regular stints on the ABS-CBN morning show “Umagang Kay Ganda”. You can even find her online at www.margaritaholmes.com, the website she launched in 2006 and which has now reached more than a million hits.

Her groundbreaking work in opening up discussion on human sexuality in Philippine society has certainly gained her more than a few critics, but she confronts it with the same feisty attitude that she handles the problems that her readers ask her help for.

“If people criticize me na walang basehan, sino ba sila? They must be really stupid!” she remarks with a laugh. “That was really the way I felt. There was one criticism that said that I wasn’t even a doctor. I have a PhD. If you think that only people with MDs are doctors, then you must be an idiot, bakit kita papatulan?

Dr. Holmes currently teaches two graduate courses in UP - The Management
of Sexual Dysfunction, and The Neuroscience of Psychotherapy. She has written 16 books which include bestsellers like “A Different Love”, “Wild, Wicked, Wonderful”, “Bad, Bold, Brazen”, “Life, Love, Lust”, “Passion, Power, Pleasure”, and “Sexy, Saucy, Spicy”.

In this 60 Minutes conversation, Margie Holmes brings to the table that feisty attitude and more, talking about anything and everything under the sun – from her conservative roots, the changing attitudes of Filipino men, and how her family is one of the most important things in her life. After all, there is definitely more to her than just the sex. (Ronald S. Lim)

STUDENTS AND CAMPUSES BULLETIN
(SCB): Your sex column created quite a stir when it first appeared in a newspaper a decade ago…

MARGIE GO-SINGCO HOLMES
(MGH): My editor then, Ricky Agcaoili (now Manila Bulletin foreign editor) was wonderful. He chose for it to be a daily column on the opinion page! This upset a lot of people, but I thought it said a lot of Ricky and of my then publisher because it showed that Psychology and Human Sexuality were important enough to be on the page where you talked about national concerns, and not on the pages where you talk about what make-up to use, or what dress to wear.

And since it was on the opinion page, men also read it! The ratio of people reading my column was 50:50, if not 50:40, with more men reading it. But writing for a newspaper really opened up the people who read my column, it really helped expose my views as a sex therapist.

SCB: How did your family react when you started the column?

MGH: My family eventually realized that they really couldn’t control me. When I appeared on TV once, my father was very angry. I said “Papa, all I was talking about is what’s true and my real opinion.” My parents are both very intelligent, but my father was quite angry, and my mother was a traditional wife and therefore agreed with my father. But by the time the book came out, wala na, okay na sila.

SCB: When did you realize that the column was taking off? Did you expect it to become as big as it was?

MGH: I never expected it to be as big as that, not in my wildest dreams. It was so surprising. My editors were so happy, the newspaper was so happy. I really found out after two weeks, which was 10 columns.

In the beginning, it was question and answer, and I didn’t get any people writing me. I had to make it about case studies I had known or questions from my friends. I couldn’t do the people I did therapy to because that is unethical. But on the 10th column, I already got a letter. And back then it was just mail! The time he read my column, the letter sender trusted me enough to write me a letter. I was so happy!

SCB: What was that first letter about?

MGH: There was this guy who met this girl, and he was so enthralled. She was quite rich, she had her own flat, and he had sex with her very easily. But what she always wanted was that he had an enema before they had sex. It would have been okay once or twice, but all the time? I remember my ending, which I thought was good, which was “There are other fish in the ocean, and they’re not all barracudas.” I thought that was very good, I really did (laughs)!

SCB: Why did you think people liked your writing?

MGH: Perhaps because I made a clear distinction between research and opinion. I quoted a lot of research. I think a lot of advice columns then didn’t do that. It was based on years of training.

I think I wrote well. I certainly tried to because I wanted the column to not just be factual, but that it should read well.

The birds and the bees

SCB: When the column came out, did you know that Filipinos were ready to talk about sex?

MGH: I never thought of that. I just presumed they were. I met very many people who were bright, and I think a lot of people are intelligent, not just those who go to school. In my limited circle, people were bright, people were ready. I never worried that people were not ready to accept the column or talk about human sexuality.

I never worried and that was why I was really shocked when I heard a lot of criticisms about it. It’s different if you just disagree, and it’s different if you try to stop the column from appearing or the books from selling.

SCB: How did you deal with that early criticism?

MGH: They demanded me to stop (laughs). I was very thankful that the newspaper then didn’t stop it, but there were business reasons for that. The column got talked about and got written up in Time and Newsweek and was discussed in CNN. But I also like to think that they believed in the worth of the column.

Let me tell you a story. I had a very good friend named Raquel Tiglao and she was a director of the Woman’s Crisis Center, and I was so thankful for her because she backed up my column and even endorsed it.

SCB: Weren’t you met with disdain by some religious groups?

MGH: I think a religious group wanted to demonstrate against my column. One of the articles that they picked out was what I had said about semen. I said that it was an acquired taste, and that the good thing about it is that it’s cheaper than caviar, better than champagne, and not as fattening as balut.

I called up Racquel because I was very worried that she would look bad. I gave her the choice to take back her endorsement. So I read her the excerpt and then she was quiet. And then she said, “Yeah, it’s true naman.” (laughs)

SCB: How do you handle criticism?

MGH: I am so blessed to have really, really good people backing me up. My daughter is wonderful. I remember her school bus driver telling her that he’s a big fan of me. I told her to tell him thank you. But I also told her that sometimes people will say bad things about me. It’s good to hear the good things, but you have your own opinion.

I remember Maria Ressa once telling me that I should let things pass over my head. Huwag patulan.

But sometimes I was not that good. Minsan pinatulan ko. There was one who asked me what I would feel if my eight-year-old girl read what I said about fingering. In all candor, I said I would be thrilled if my eight-year-old girl read my columns, because it’s something only older people would understand. I don’t think an eight-year-old would know about what I was writing.

SCB: Did you have to explain to your daughter about what you did?

MGH: If she felt that she needed to ask me, I would answer it. She had a normal childhood in that sense (laughs). What I did wasn’t a big deal. Some women have jobs, and this is my job.

Alex (MGH’s daughter): I remember how she was on the radio, and I was very young, and I was listening to the interview, and they asked if her daughter was a virgin and she said yes. And I remember screaming into the radio “Mommy, I’m not a virgin!” Because I thought a virgin was like the Virgin Mary. And I was thinking “Why is she saying that?”

MGH: That’s so cute (laughs)!

SCB: What’s the most hurtful criticism you’ve gotten? Have you ever received something below the belt?

MGH: If they had hit my daughter or my husband, I would have been really angry. But if people criticize me na walang basehan, sino ba sila? They must be really stupid (laughs)!

There was one criticism that said that I wasn’t even a doctor. I have a PhD. If you think that only people with M.D.s are doctors, then you must be an idiot. Manoling Morato said a few bad things about me which I thought were pretty personal, but it sold a lot of books. I need to thank him (laughs)!

SCB: What article or book of yours did you get much criticism for?

MGH: My gay book A Different Love. I got the most harmful, most painful things for that. When I got the first hate letter, I was so shocked, and I was told that I would get so much more of these. I got a lot of flack from the religious.

SCB: It was the pre-Ladlad days…

MGH: Oh yes! This was the first one that came out and talked about homosexuality in the Philippines. I have a chapter on it because there are bright, religious, and more sound moral people as opposed to moralistic priests and nuns who are not open about homosexuality. I am really against those that say otherwise.

Those who say that they are okay with homosexuality because they believe that “you love the sinner, you just hate the sin.” Di ba you hear that a lot? I feel this is not accepting of homosexuality, it’s calling them sinners and calling homosexuality a sin which I don’t believe in at all. I disagree with that vehemently.

SCB: Have you ever gotten a letter when you thought that, “okay, this is something I couldn’t handle…”

MGH: I don’t think I ever got that kind of letter. But there were some where I asked questions about, mainly scientific like fertility and all that.

Another one is from a seaman that I still would want to answer. It’s “if you work in a boiler room, would that compromise your fertility?” Because there’s a lot of research, right? Or if you are a constant bicycle rider, does it lower fertility?

Another one is “Where is the cheapest place or how much is a fertility work up?” That one I ask because I don’t really know it. But usually, that’s what I usually do and then I write the column myself.

SCB: What has been the weirdest question you got so far?

MGH: Sa website namin, we have a section of weird, unreasonable, and kakainis!

Some mostly are declarations of love and lust. There are relatively mild but others …

Unreasonable ones come from students asking me to write their thesis, that’s infuriating. Some even say “tell me all you know.” It infuriates me when I get letters like that asking for list of books and others.

There are others who also want to make the website a site for dating (laughs). I remember one letter that involved Alex. I think he wants to be the boyfriend of my daughter or me. I don’t know if Alex remembers it, she was very young then, in high school. I told her, “Oh, look at this guy…” but she said, “thank you but I have too many men interested in me.” I thought that was very cute because she was only about 12 or 13.

Growing up conservative

SCB: How did you become so liberal?

MGH: I was raised very conservatively. My father is Chinese. But the conservative point of view was not really my point of view but I think what saved me was reading. I have no doubt that my parents love me although I would have preferred a different kind of love – like a love where I am listened to. Parents forget that once you reach adolescence, you have really a mind of your own because you can read, you can discuss with other people, you can formulate. Very few parents are willing to listen.

SCB: And how did reading save you?

MGH: It showed me that there is a different kind of life, a different kind of thinking. And women, they were women even if they didn’t put on makeup, and were not that sosyal, and Ateneans didn’t find them particularly cute. Masakit ‘yun ha! Everybody else was being asked to the prom and you were not?!

Reading helped me see that there was a different kind of life, not because it was pampalubag loob, but because these things really didn’t matter. Reading made me see a definition of beauty that is not just mestisa, matangos ang ilong, maputi.

SCB: You mentioned that you came from a conservative family, how did you...

MGH: ...how did I become like this?

SCB: …a sex therapist to be exact! (Laughs)

MGH: To put it bluntly. I also won’t mention names, kawawa naman the guy. When I was in second year college, I fell in love with a married man, my professor in school and I’d like to think that he fell in love with me too (laughs). I think he did because when his chair found out he was going to be kicked out of school, I went to UP, but he still wanted to teach.

So, I didn’t know who to go to. I’m sure there was a psychiatrist and a priest who would really listen to the whole story but I just didn’t know them. So I said, where can a person, like me, who’s bright, who has a different sense of morality but feels very, very moral, really go to discuss these things?

Where can I go if I ask “Can guys really know if I’m not a virgin?” And get a straight answer and not “No we shouldn’t do that” but say, “Well, you know, according to the research, blah, blah, blah. My clinical experience...”

I wanted answers based on research, on facts, from people who might even share their own views but have the integrity to separate views and opinion from facts, research. And that is why I think I decided to go in. I wanted maybe to help other girls like me, women like me to have someone they could go to, whom they could trust and that could give them the correct answers.

SCB: So there was a need for people to talk to other people?

MGH: For example, I live in a very conservative setting, if I’m not anymore a virgin, will a Filipino man still want to marry me? You know, and get right answers. What you think is the correct answer but may not necessarily be so. Many Filipinos would not want to marry you but there are a few who are bright enough, and open enough, to realize that being a non-virgin is not important in terms of being a good wife and being a good mother. I didn’t know anyone who would give me straight answers hindi pasikot-sikot and that is why I decided to be a sex therapist.

Are FIlipinos ready for therapy?

SCB: What is the end objective of therapy?

MGH: Hopefully in therapy, they learn that people can be honest, that people are there when they say they would be there.

SCB: If it’s a serious problem, do you talk to the letter sender face-to-face?

MGH: If it’s clinical, yes, you have to talk the person face-to-face. Answering a column is not really therapy. It’s mainly information or you tell the person to think about certain issues.

But in therapy, if you think the client is strong, you can challenge the client. Not in a bad way, but when he says “I can’t do this because...” you can say, “Are there any other reasons you are doing this?”

SCB: Is therapy something that Filipinos need?

MGH: I think Filipinos need it as much as any other nationality. What I think Filipinos need is access to more accurate information. We don’t have it. We’re not as bad as China that controls the Internet, but even on the Internet, you don’t know if the information is accurate or not.

That’s another reason why I went to UP. I saw the research that they did. They expect you to do an independent research of your own. Not the big, big problems in life, but not just regurgitating facts that they read. Maybe other universities did that, but I didn’t see it in UP. It was so exciting! In English II, you are already taught to write a term paper. It already teaches you how to go to the library. That’s good practice and helps you to become more discriminating about who’s telling the truth and who isn’t.

What is their basis? Is it just opinion or not? Who’s publishing their book? Let’s say it’s the Catholic Church that is publishing it. Do they have a bias?

SCB: Is talking to friends the same thing as doing therapy?

MGH: It’s different. I can’t do therapy with my friends because I like them too much. If their boyfriend or their husband does something, I’d say “Iwanan mo siya!” But if it’s a client of yours, you have to contextualize it more. You have to see the person’s realistic resources.

For example, going home to one’s parents can work. On my part, my parents would be very happy if I separated from my husband and stayed with them. But sometimes there’s a price to pay. Sometimes there are households that are very conservative and say “Asawa mo ‘yan. Bumalik ka kasi asawa mo ‘yan.” You have to ask if the options they have are realistic options.

These are things that you can ask in therapy but in a column, you cannot. With the website, we have been able to continue sometimes, presuming I have the time. Sometimes you feel there are 30 people who have questions that are worth answering. If you answer one already and it is something that he can take on his own, why would you spend more time on this when there’s another question that needs your attention?

But face-to-face is also important because you can see what the person is feeling, from the tone of voice to the body language. That’s very important for therapy.

Convent- bred

SCB: Tell us a bit how were you like as a student.

MGH: Don’t make me sound mayabang (laughs)! I graduated magna cum laude from UP so I think that shows I wasn’t so dumb (laughs). This is a very minor point, but for me it meant a lot. I got a flat 1 with Dr. Sutaria who was a Chemistry teacher for 20 years. Up to that time, I was the only one who got a flat 1. I think that meant a lot. I was pretty active too in the Psychological Association of the Philippines.

SCB: Did people like you?

MGH: I think so and I like them a lot. That’s usually how you gauge whether people like you, if you naturally like them and are not just using them.

SCB: Have you always been this friendly and perky?

MGH: You’re so nice to call it perky. Yes, unfortunately (laughs), maybe for my mother, my husband, daughter. Although I’ve toned down now, but yes!

SCB: Were you the type of student who participated in rallies in UP?

MGH: A few. When I moved to UP from Maryknoll, my father was furious because of the things about UP, many of which were not true. At that time, people thought that if you came from a convent school and moved to UP, you behave as if nakawala ka sa hawla. I promised him I would not join any rallies. It didn’t help because I still had to pay for my own education because he was so angry that I moved to UP.

SCB: You had to pay for your education?

MGH: Happily, I had a scholarship, the Gerry Roxas Scholarship. I was in Maryknoll since kinder and I wanted a different point of view. Other Maryknollers who graduated ahead and had gone to UP loved it. People who are UP-born and bred, I really admire them. A lot are very bright and seemed really sincere in the commitment they had, be it for the country or the political system, etc.

SCB: From the convent to the liberal UP, did you immediately take in the culture of UP or was there an adjustment period?

MGH: I don’t think so. I think the adjustment was on the part of my parents. In UP, you could dress any way you want, which I loved. Nobody minded but if they did, I didn’t care because there were other people who were bright enough to look beyond clothes.

JEREMY BAER (MGH’s husband): I think everywhere, not just here, if you’re raised in a conservative way, up to the time you leave high school, your life is told by your parents and by the people your parents chose to look after you like teachers.

So, you may feel within you that you don’t agree with what they’re saying or that there is a greater reality that is being expressed by these people. You cannot live it fully because you’re a dependent but once you reach 18 and go to college, then the world opens up and if you’re prepared to go the distance you could say, “Well, I’m sorry, if you don’t agree with my lifestyle” in which case she was ready to live by herself, to live outside of her family and outside the groupings in which she was familiar with until today.

So, what you could see is the genetic part, that she had a different mindset and that grew, that was nurtured both of what she read and the experiences that she had, from the conservative to a more open. Well said?

MGH: Very well said. I mean we had the same situation with our daughter Alex. We wanted her to come back here to study and had asked her what she preferred. Because private education in the States is very expensive, my parents were paying for half and I was paying for half of her education. But when she was 19 years old or so, my father said he could no longer afford to pay for perhaps because of the economy, although my feeling was because they just wanted her to come back. So I told Alex, because it was a matter of half a million pesos that all of a sudden I had to find, she had three choices.

First was to come back to the Philippines and have an easy life where lolo would provide her a car, and she could study anywhere she wanted. Second, if she could stop studying until I earned enough money to support her studies; and third, if she got a job so she could continue studying (Turns to daughter Alex). Do you remember your first job? It was difficult, you were a waitress at the school cafeteria, a security guard for the dorm. I mean, these jobs are not sophisticated, accepted jobs, you were a waitress at a diner, that was difficult. So I know my father even in terms of paninindigan.

I know my parents, I grew up with them.

SCB: How did you meet your husband?

MGH: Ay naku, another book yan! Another hour (laughs). But I met him 30 years ago, I was teaching at UP and he was working here. I met him at a function sponsored by the British Embassy and Cathay Pacific.

SCB: Of course, he courted you…

MGH: For a long time, we were friends. He was sent to different places but we would talk. In fact, I even introduced him to another woman. It was not a long distance, erotic relationship but it was a friendship. Especially when I was teaching in North Carolina, my God that was like death! So whenever he would call, I valued it because this was somebody who was articulate and we have a shared history because he lived in the Philippines so there was not so much explaining anymore.

More open- minded Filipinos

SCB: Have you always been into writing even when a student?

MGH: I’ve always loved writing. It’s a way to really express yourself, you’re in complete and utter control.

SCB: Do you keep a blog?

MGH: No, but I have a website, which my husband happily helps me with. I would be so thankful if you could put the website, it’s www.margaritaholmes.com

SCB: What kinds of books were you into then?

MGH: A lot of fiction. Ah, Judy Blume when I was 10, 11 years old. And then there were the books that made you think, books that talk about, what if you’re not popular, if you get angry and you’re not supposed to, things that helped me, a whole lot. I also like poetry. This is a very silly poem but I still like Anne Sexton. (MGH then recites a poem) “Poor little fly on the wall, walks up the wall, see don’t fall. Ain’t got no comb to comb his hair but fly don’t care, ain’t got no hair.” (laughs)

It’s a very silly poem but I loved it! For me it meant so what if you don’t have a nice dress to wear to the prom, how important is that? And if a guy will find you sexy because you have this beautiful dress, this guy is napakababaw naman. I mean it’s okay if he finds you sexy because of that, but you would hope that he will find you sexy because of the way you speak and what you think about, or because of what kind of a person you are.

SCB: Did you go to your prom?

MGH: I did. Don’t ask me who my date was but I had a date to my junior prom. I invited him. In my senior prom, I was so happy, we're just friends, he was very nice, and later on, he told me he was gay, which was no problem at all. I took him to the prom because I knew I would be comfortable with him, and he was funny and bright. I think we both made each other feel so attractive and it wasn’t a ploy. I was a senior, I was older and wiser so I chose someone who I really enjoyed being with and not someone who I would just be kilig with, di ba?

SCB: Do you teach now?

MGH: I teach two graduate courses in UP: The Management of Sexual Dysfunction and The Neuroscience of Psychotherapy. I think they’re good courses.

SCB: How different is it teaching here and abroad? In terms of the students, was it an advantage that they were more open-minded abroad?

MH: Of course, they were less conservative abroad so when they ask these questions, you can explain.

I taught college students and they were so shocked when I told them that virginity was an issue here. In that sense, they were more liberal or less conservative but they are not necessarily open because they judge people who think that virginity is such an antiquated concept. I think they were less open because these undergrads were judgmental.

But here, the subjects we teach were more like SocSci 3, a subject that was just introduced in UP for the last seven years. It’s about gender and sexuality or something like that. So you also have to teach them how to discriminate between so-called information and real information.

The other thing also is that the people here value education more and then that encourages you to try even harder. You know I would have a student who comes from Los Baños and it would take her two and a half to three hours just to get to my class and another two and a half to three hours to go back. And if there’s a typhoon, it’s so hard to get a bus whereas in North Carolina, everybody has a car so it wouldn’t be hard to get to my class. So, ‘yun two things: I feel that people in the Philippines are more open, they value education more.

SCB: How did you balance your clinical practice and writing, and at one point, doing a TV show?

MGH: My clinical practice does not take up as much of my time as my writing. When you’re doing therapy, you cannot travel in and out of the country, you have to stay put because as they say in therapy, it is not the school of thought you were trained in and share with the client, it is the relationship you have with the client that is the most helpful. It should be an honest relationship.

Because I do much traveling, it is very difficult to be there over the long haul especially for a client who is so vulnerable.

That’s why Jeremy, who is the one most helpful for the website, always says to people asking for therapy, may we refer you to someone else. Usually, I try to handle cases which I think cannot be referred to other people or which I think I would be most helpful.

SCB: Since you wrote the column, how have people or the readers changed?

MGH: I’m not sure but now, for example, I get a lot more people asking about pre-mature ejaculation. Before, Filipinos, especially Filipino men, are not aware that there is such a thing. But now, more men are concerned about premature ejaculation because I would like to think that they are more concerned about how their partners feel.

I also see that a lot of Filipino men are more open about virginity now, not so much judging anymore whether a woman would be a good wife simply because she’s still a virgin. Some men now really think who they will make love to and feel that this is a relationship. I think men are more considerate na oo nga, walang sabit pero masasaktan naman ang asawa ko eh. And I think that’s wonderful, and many of the changes I see now are wonderful.

SCB: Are Filipino men much kinder now?

MGH: Maybe more aware but less self-absorbed. Because let’s face it, in the Philippines, the man is king, di ba? I’m glad that men now are less self-absorbed, do not have that much sense of entitlement and they realize that the woman is as important, if not more so.

One more thing about men now is that they are more open about homosexuality. I like to think that A Different Love has changed it as well as the others that came after it like Ladlad and other books. But people are more certainly open because aside from books, we have courses as I said in UP, the SocSci 3 as well as in other schools, more new books that have come out, the Internet is there also.

SCB: How do you feel when people ask, don’t you have other topics to discuss other than sex?

MGH: Ay, thank you for asking that! For any subject that requires professional opinion, like when I’m in a party, I am but human. I also want to talk about food or I like to talk when I pick food on my husband’s plate. Kasi it’s diyahe you know, when people ask you questions tapos namo-monopolize mo ‘yung conversation, di naman ako ganyan.

I do not talk about these at a party, basta ‘yung social events, social. However, I feel that it’s time for me to leave talking about sex, or not write about it so much, or just write about the more complicated and philosophical questions because there are so many people who already write about sex here and I think they are doing a pretty good job.

SCB: So what do you want to write about then if not about sex?

MGH: On mental disorders, specifically clinical depression. And I hope, by this year, it will come out.

I would like people to know that you can have a mental disorder and still live a normal life, still work, still have relationships and you can still be a kind, mature individual.